Sorry if these have been posted before, but I was feeling the need to study them:
I got my finger on the trigger But I don't know who to trust When I look into your eyes There's just devils and dust
We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie Home's a long, long way from us I feel a dirty wind blowing Devils and dust
I got God on my side I'm just trying to survive What if what you do to survive Kills the things you love Fear's a powerful thing It can turn your heart black you can trust It'll take your God filled soul And fill it with devils and dust
Well I dreamed of you last night In a field of blood and stone The blood began to dry The smell began to rise
Well I dreamed of you last night In a field of mud and bone Your blood began to dry The smell began to rise
We've got God on our side We're just trying to survive What if what you do to survive Kills the things you love Fear's a powerful thing It'll turn your heart black you can trust It'll take your God filled soul Fill it with devils and dust
Now every woman and every man They want to take a righteous stand Find the love that God wills And the faith that He commands
I've got my finger on the trigger And tonight faith just ain't enough When I look inside my heart There's just devils and dust
Well I've got God on my side And I'm just trying to survive What if what you do to survive Kills the things you love Fear's a dangerous thing It can turn your heart black you can trust It'll take your God filled soul Fill it with devils and dust
It'll take your God filled soul Fill it with devils and dust
"Too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered dreams of other human beings." ~Robert F. Kennedy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBLOWS@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:7hbk411ahr1h8kbmk9gbh4f85rd1run45v@4ax.com...> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:55:15 +0000 (UTC), "donnieb78"> <donnieb78@hotmail.com> wrote:>
We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie>
Nobody has pointed out that this is not the male form of this name. Is it> an error? Does it change the context at all? Does it matter?>
Is it possible that he is singing this (in his head, only, perhaps) as a letter back home to Bobbie...trying to fill her in on what's happening around him as he's 'a long, long way from home' ? Just a passing thought, probably someone else will chime in with something more plausible. : )
"Too often we excuse those who are willing> to build their own lives on the shattered> dreams of other human beings."> ~Robert F. Kennedy> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Karen Burns" <hellotrou@NoSpamNomindspring.com> wrote in message news:rxr2e.611$44.45@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBLOWS@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message> news:7hbk411ahr1h8kbmk9gbh4f85rd1run45v@4ax.com...>> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:55:15 +0000 (UTC), "donnieb78">> <donnieb78@hotmail.com> wrote:>>
We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie>>
Nobody has pointed out that this is not the male form of this name. Is it>> an error? Does it change the context at all? Does it matter?>>
Is it possible that he is singing this (in his head, only, perhaps) as a> letter back home to Bobbie...trying to fill her in on what's happening> around him as he's 'a long, long way from home' ?> Just a passing thought, probably someone else will chime in with something> more plausible. : )
That's my take, too. Bobbie is not part of "we."
Now go listen to Southside's "All the Way Home." It's comes off sounding like Bobbie's response, and it'll rip your heart out.
Buzz Lightyear 30 March 2005 11:06:19 [ permanent link ]
its an official lyric that was posted on aolmusic.com yesterday which i pointed out and is also on the lyric sheet with the single
"JimmyConway75" <JimmyNOConwaySPAM75@aol.com> wrote in message news:VLSdnZ8W8N7v1tffRVn-ig@comcast.com...> <<< We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie >>>>
<<< Nobody has pointed out that this is not the male form of this name. Is > it an error? Does it change the context at all? Does it matter? >>>>
Is that the official lyric or just a transcriber's judgment at this point?>
"Karen Burns" <hellotrou@NoSpamNomindspring.com> wrote in message news:rxr2e.611$44.45@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBLOWS@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message> news:7hbk411ahr1h8kbmk9gbh4f85rd1run45v@4ax.com...>> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:55:15 +0000 (UTC), "donnieb78">> <donnieb78@hotmail.com> wrote:>>
We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie>>
Nobody has pointed out that this is not the male form of this name. Is it>> an error? Does it change the context at all? Does it matter?>>
Is it possible that he is singing this (in his head, only, perhaps) as a> letter back home to Bobbie...trying to fill her in on what's happening> around him as he's 'a long, long way from home' ?
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:19:03 GMT, "Karen Burns" <hellotrou@NoSpamNomindspring.com> wrote:
"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBLOWS@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message>news:7hbk411ahr1h8kbmk9gbh4f85rd1run45v@4ax.com...>> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:55:15 +0000 (UTC), "donnieb78">> <donnieb78@hotmail.com> wrote:>>
We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie>>
Nobody has pointed out that this is not the male form of this name. Is it>> an error? Does it change the context at all? Does it matter?>>
Is it possible that he is singing this (in his head, only, perhaps) as a>letter back home to Bobbie...trying to fill her in on what's happening>around him as he's 'a long, long way from home' ?>Just a passing thought, probably someone else will chime in with something>more plausible. : )
Maybe the polar opposite to a "wish you were here" postcard? Gives the "I dreamed of you last night..." part a bit more intensity, I'd say.
I think that's a good guess, Karen. Think of the way he described Brother Under the Bridge on the Joad tour. It was the homeless vet talking to his daughter...
"Too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered dreams of other human beings." ~Robert F. Kennedy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered dreams of other human beings." ~Robert F. Kennedy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBOING@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:114ldsgde2s6g77@corp.supernews.com...> "Bluetele" <Bluetele@rcn.comOBVIOUSSPAMBLOCK> wrote in message> news:36ednY2JGM2129ffRVn-rg@rcn.net...> >
"Karen Burns" <hellotrou@NoSpamNomindspring.com> wrote in message> > news:rxr2e.611$44.45@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...> > > "Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBLOWS@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message> > > news:7hbk411ahr1h8kbmk9gbh4f85rd1run45v@4ax.com...> > >> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:55:15 +0000 (UTC), "donnieb78"> > >> <donnieb78@hotmail.com> wrote:> > >>
We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie> > >>
Nobody has pointed out that this is not the male form of this name.> Is it> > >> an error? Does it change the context at all? Does it matter?> > >>
Is it possible that he is singing this (in his head, only, perhaps) as> a> > > letter back home to Bobbie...trying to fill her in on what's happening> > > around him as he's 'a long, long way from home' ?> > > Just a passing thought, probably someone else will chime in with> something> > > more plausible. : )> >
That's my take, too. Bobbie is not part of "we.">
As I think about it more and look at the lyrics, I also think that there> is an additional layer beyond his simply writing a letter home. Look at> the lyrics up to the mention of Bobbie:>
I got my finger on the trigger> But I don't know who to trust> When I look into your eyes> There's just devils and dust>
We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie> Home's a long, long way from us> I feel a dirty wind blowing> Devils and dust>
In the first verse he doesn't say that when he looks in to *their* eyes he> sees devils and dust (as he would if writing to Bobbie about others), but> when he looks in to *your* eyes he sees them. This seems discordant with> the rest of the song in which it seems to fit that he is talking/writing> to Bobbie back home...unless he really is looking in to *her* eyes.>
So, my take is that this soldier is writing to Bobbie. He's been looking> at her picture. He's been looking in to her eyes in the only way available> to him now...and what he's doing to survive is killing the things he> loves, one of them his love for Bobbie. He looks and looks and looks and> there's nothing there...but dust, and devils telling him not to care. Turn> it off. Just get by.
if so, it gets a bit stranger. This is not mentioned in the lyrice, but if you listen to the song, "Bobbie" appears again:
Well I dreamed of you last night In a field of blood and stone The blood began to dry The smell began to rise
Well I dreamed of you last night, *Bobbie* In a field of mud and bone Your blood began to dry The smell began to rise
If Bobbie is back home, the narrator just had a pretty strange and nasty vision of her. If Bobbie is on the battlefield, it's nasty and sad, but unfortunately no so strange.
Now, I agree that this song isn't musically groundbreaking of course, but> Zeke, if my interpretation is accurate (and I don't know that it is,> though it certainly fits, doesn't it?) I think the lyrical content *is* a> departure for Bruce. It ain't as simple as it initially seems.>
In the past, Bruce's lost lovers have been those guilty of betrayal (real> or imagined) like Terry in "Backstreets," Or, those who have tended to> drift apart, like the couple in "Dry Lightning."
If we read Bobbie as a woman back home, then the first verse is (or may be?) all addressed to her, tied in to the first line of the second verse:
I got my finger on the trigger But I don't know who to trust When I look into your eyes There's just devils and dust We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie
The narrator may have issues with trust not just on this battlefield, but also back home, on that battlefield. If so, it puts the dream of Bobbie in the field of mud and bone in a different context. It also lends a dual meaning to these lines as well:
Fear's a powerful thing It'll turn your heart black
Is the fear of death in Iraq? Or of loss back home?
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:49:17 -0500, "A to Z" <DONTadietzUSE@THISPARTadelphia.net> wrote:
"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBOING@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message>news:114ldsgde2s6g77@corp.supernews.com...>>
As I think about it more and look at the lyrics, I also think that there>> is an additional layer beyond his simply writing a letter home. Look at>> the lyrics up to the mention of Bobbie:>>
I got my finger on the trigger>> But I don't know who to trust>> When I look into your eyes>> There's just devils and dust>>
We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie>> Home's a long, long way from us>> I feel a dirty wind blowing>> Devils and dust>>
In the first verse he doesn't say that when he looks in to *their* eyes he>> sees devils and dust (as he would if writing to Bobbie about others), but>> when he looks in to *your* eyes he sees them. This seems discordant with>> the rest of the song in which it seems to fit that he is talking/writing>> to Bobbie back home...unless he really is looking in to *her* eyes.>>
So, my take is that this soldier is writing to Bobbie. He's been looking>> at her picture. He's been looking in to her eyes in the only way available>> to him now...and what he's doing to survive is killing the things he>> loves, one of them his love for Bobbie. He looks and looks and looks and>> there's nothing there...but dust, and devils telling him not to care. Turn>> it off. Just get by.>
if so, it gets a bit stranger. This is not mentioned in the lyrice, but if>you listen to the song, "Bobbie" appears again:>
Well I dreamed of you last night>In a field of blood and stone>The blood began to dry>The smell began to rise>
Well I dreamed of you last night, *Bobbie*>In a field of mud and bone>Your blood began to dry>The smell began to rise>
If Bobbie is back home, the narrator just had a pretty strange and nasty>vision of her. If Bobbie is on the battlefield, it's nasty and sad, but>unfortunately no so strange.
I don't find it strange at all. I think his nightmare blends perfectly with everything else around him. Remember, he's been looking at that picture, in to her eyes.
Now, I agree that this song isn't musically groundbreaking of course, but>> Zeke, if my interpretation is accurate (and I don't know that it is,>> though it certainly fits, doesn't it?) I think the lyrical content *is* a>> departure for Bruce. It ain't as simple as it initially seems.>>
In the past, Bruce's lost lovers have been those guilty of betrayal (real>> or imagined) like Terry in "Backstreets," Or, those who have tended to>> drift apart, like the couple in "Dry Lightning.">
If we read Bobbie as a woman back home, then the first verse is (or may be?)>all addressed to her, tied in to the first line of the second verse:>
I got my finger on the trigger>But I don't know who to trust>When I look into your eyes>There's just devils and dust>We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie>
The narrator may have issues with trust not just on this battlefield, but>also back home, on that battlefield. If so, it puts the dream of Bobbie in>the field of mud and bone in a different context. It also lends a dual>meaning to these lines as well:>
Fear's a powerful thing>It'll turn your heart black>
Is the fear of death in Iraq? Or of loss back home?
"Too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered dreams of other human beings." ~Robert F. Kennedy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Big Captain 31 March 2005 08:28:00 [ permanent link ]
A to Z wrote:
The narrator may have issues with trust not just on this battlefield, but> also back home, on that battlefield. If so, it puts the dream of Bobbie in> the field of mud and bone in a different context. It also lends a dual> meaning to these lines as well:>
Fear's a powerful thing> It'll turn your heart black>
Is the fear of death in Iraq? Or of loss back home?>
"I've got God on my side> I'm just trying to survive> but what if what you do to survive> Kills the thing you love?> It (fear)can turn your heart black, you can trust> It'll take your God-filled soul> And fill it with devils and dust."
interesting possibilites this song is offering up. i keep getting the feeling that maybe the narrator may not necessarily be who we think he is or where we think he's from.
"A to Z" <DONTadietzUSE@THISPARTadelphia.net> wrote in message news:3b0s7vF4dgnb5U1@individual.net...>
Well I dreamed of you last night, *Bobbie*> In a field of mud and bone> Your blood began to dry> The smell began to rise>
If Bobbie is back home, the narrator just had a pretty strange and nasty> vision of her.
Have you ever had one of those dreams that incorporate things that are going on around you while you're sleeping? My current take is the narrator is in this field of blood and bone, and Bobbie is merely in the dream. The odor of bodies around him decomposing infects the dream.
"Bluetele" <Bluetele@rcn.comOBVIOUSSPAMBLOCK> wrote in message news:vIWdneF_n-l9YdbfRVn-jA@rcn.net...>
"A to Z" <DONTadietzUSE@THISPARTadelphia.net> wrote in message> news:3b0s7vF4dgnb5U1@individual.net...> >
Well I dreamed of you last night, *Bobbie*> > In a field of mud and bone> > Your blood began to dry> > The smell began to rise> >
If Bobbie is back home, the narrator just had a pretty strange and
nasty> > vision of her.>
Have you ever had one of those dreams that incorporate things that are
going> on around you while you're sleeping? My current take is the narrator is
this field of blood and bone, and Bobbie is merely in the dream. The
odor> of bodies around him decomposing infects the dream.
Except I don't think that holds up the second time through, in the "field of mud and bone," since he sings "*your* blood began to dry..." He isn't just dreaming of Bobbie while sleeping where he is, but dreaming of her body there with the other casualties of war.
<rawbylaw@aol.com> wrote in message news:1112358012.994267.105120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...>
LuvTheBoss@aol.com wrote:> > why the rework of the BB music? <> > Because these are the same fellas!
i dunno. it may be the same sad old story of cain and able, but these> aint the same fellas, i don't think.
Not the same people specifically, but the struggle with doubt and faith seems to be closely related for some reason in the 2 songs, the difference being that in BB the characters come together at the end and make it over the hill. In D & D the protagonist doesn't have that support group and falls all the way back down the hill, and then some.
Some very interesting stuff I'm reading here, btw, mostly through backquotes - gotta go back and read through this thread again! Seems like these lyrics may have more meat than bone after all
"TopDog" <topdog_bossfan(nospm)@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:114qleqgdbcaia0@corp.supernews.com...> Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed* Bobbie?>
Thoughts?
Floated the idea as in posted it? I don't think I've seen it, but the readings in this thread have been moving my thoughts in that direction. I just would like official lyrics so we know whether it's Bobby that bought it on the battlefield or Bobbie getting an unexpected divorce back home...
I'm convinced at this point that the narrator is at least *thinking* about the possibility of killing one or the other, but I'm not sure if it's happened (yet). I also had a fleeting reminiscence of Nothing Man, thinking this narrator also might be contemplating suicide. I don't see anything to directly contradict that notion either, but less to directly support it than other interpretations that have been posted.
Also wondering, as Denise mentioned the 'Blood Brothers' aspect of military comradeship, if Bruce's use of the BB melody is simply meant to point this up? With some real blood mixed in?
<LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message news:1112365081.974802.129780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed*> Bobbie?>
Thoughts?>
or that Bobbie is a female soldier?
One track minds and all that Thanks for pulling me out of the rut! It's a distinct possibility, and the movement of women into the battlefield is so recent that old fogeys like me still automatically assume that in a Bobby/Bobbie dichotomy only Bobby's likely to be in that scenario.
"TopDog" <topdog_bossfan(nospm)@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:114qleqgdbcaia0@corp.supernews.com...> Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed* Bobbie?>
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." ~Martin Luther King, Jr. ******************************************************************
<LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message news:1112365081.974802.129780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed*> Bobbie?>
Thoughts?>
or that Bobbie is a female soldier?
I don't think anyone's suggested that either. I did think of it the other day and forgot to bring it up.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle ******************************************************************
"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBOING@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:114qrc2k38paq58@corp.supernews.com...> "Mike Voss" <mfvossNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote in message> news:bMc3e.3239$x4.2915@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...> > "TopDog" <topdog_bossfan(nospm)@hotmail.com> wrote in message> > news:114qleqgdbcaia0@corp.supernews.com...> > > Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed*> Bobbie?> > >
Thoughts?> >
Floated the idea as in posted it? I don't think I've> > seen it, but the readings in this thread have been> > moving my thoughts in that direction. I just would> > like official lyrics so we know whether it's Bobby> > that bought it on the battlefield or Bobbie getting> > an unexpected divorce back home...>
Now, that could be an official typo, but it is official.
Just found that on the official site. I thought somebody was pulling another April Fool's and didn't go look until now Agreed that it *could* be a typo, but they usually reserve those for mis-spelling Landau's and other names I'm betting this is the real deal, and he's speaking either to a wife or girlfriend back home or a female soldier. If the latter, I don't think we need to question whether they're both out in the front lines for two reasons: one is that Bruce simply may not have been thinking about the specific realities of where women are typically placed in war zones; and secondly it's easy enough to envision a situation where women would become involved in a firefight outside of the front lines. Ambushes happen everywhere, sometimes right up against the "safe" perimeters of US-held territory.
"Mike Voss" <mfvossNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:Oee3e.347$N13.238@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...>
I'm betting this is the real deal, and he's speaking> either to a wife or girlfriend back home or a female> soldier. If the latter, I don't think we need to question> whether they're both out in the front lines for two> reasons: one is that Bruce simply may not have been> thinking about the specific realities of where women> are typically placed in war zones;
I agree.
and secondly it's> easy enough to envision a situation where women> would become involved in a firefight outside of the> front lines. Ambushes happen everywhere, sometimes> right up against the "safe" perimeters of US-held> territory.
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." ~Martin Luther King, Jr. ******************************************************************
"Mike Voss" <mfvossNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:bMc3e.3239$x4.2915@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
I'm convinced at this point that the narrator is> at least *thinking* about the possibility of> killing one or the other, but I'm not sure if> it's happened (yet). I also had a fleeting> reminiscence of Nothing Man, thinking this> narrator also might be contemplating suicide.> I don't see anything to directly contradict that> notion either, but less to directly support it> than other interpretations that have been posted.
Listening to the song and reading along with the newly posted official lyrics I think I need to back off from the above conviction, but the notion of suicidal thoughts seems to have more potential as I look at the words again:
"I got my finger on the trigger But I don't know who to trust When I look into your eyes There's just devils and dust We're a long, long way from home, Bobbie Home's a long, long way from us I feel a dirty wind blowing Devils and dust"
Picture two soldiers together, as Denise suggests, at Abu Ghraib or a similar place; the narrator is holding a weapon pointed at a prisoner being escorted by the female soldier; she has become so accustomed to the practices they've been asked to indulge in that it's taken her soul, and the soldier narrating sees it in her eyes.
"I got God on my side I'm just trying to survive What if what you do to survive Kills the things you love Fear's a powerful thing It can turn your heart black you can trust It'll take your God filled soul And fill it with devils and dust"
The narrator reflects upon what he sees in Bobbie's eyes and reveals that he has fallen with her, after having previously fallen for her.
"Well I dreamed of you last night In a field of blood and stone The blood began to dry The smell began to rise Well I dreamed of you last night In a field of mud and bone Your blood began to dry The smell began to rise"
The stone may not still be the prison - in his dream, perhaps the narrator is envisioning Bobbie dead in an exterior environment, a more likely place for her to die than inside the prison walls? Or in the dream the prison is attacked and Bobbie dies that way, in which case...
"We've got God on our side We're just trying to survive What if what you do to survive Kills the things you love Fear's a powerful thing It'll turn your heart black you can trust It'll take your God filled soul Fill it with devils and dust"
...what they have done to survive kills one of them (in the dream at least), leaving the other with a heart black and filled with hatred.
"Now every woman and every man They want to take a righteous stand Find the love that God wills And the faith that He commands I've got my finger on the trigger And tonight faith just ain't enough When I look inside my heart There's just devils and dust"
I'm going to take *every* woman and *every* man to be the emphasis Denise sees on the loss of compassionate wisdom caused by the situation here: every man and woman *on both sides* has a faith in their God, and the soldiers are feeling tricked into believing that only their own faith is right, that God is only on *their* side, and are rejecting that notion: "tonight faith just ain't enough".
Finally, as I note that he says *tonight*, a time when he's less likely to have his gun aimed at a prisoner, perhaps it is indeed aimed at himself. The story could begin one day, the dream taking place that night ("last night", another day passing into "tonight", when the final take on his plight is narrated.
As a few people have noted after several listening, I'm not focusing so much on the Blood Brothers music now, I'm growing used to it and even finding things about the music attractive (Brendan O'Brieny sounding things, God help me <G>).
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle ******************************************************************
The thing about Bobbie being female - if Bruce wanted a female soldier, wouldn't he have picked a name that's obviously female, since most of us think of soldiers as male?
-- TopDog <LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message news:1112379301.012716.144790@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Mike Voss Apr 1, 8:51 am>
Picture two soldiers together, as Denise> suggests, at Abu Ghraib or a similar> place; the narrator is holding a> weapon pointed at a prisoner> being escorted by the female> soldier; she has become so accustomed> to the practices they've been asked> to indulge in that it's taken her> soul, and the soldier narrating> sees it in her eyes.<>
Wow... should I even tell you my theory on the smell that began to rise> <g>>
"Zeke" <disisdis@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote in message news:VK2dnbR0pMmNDNDfRVn-uw@comcast.com...> No offense (seriously, I really don't intend any offense) but it strikes
that you guys are burning up the brain cell trying to imagine various> scenarios for these lyrics. Is that really what a Bruce Springsteen song> requires nowadays? That his lyrics are so now opaque it takes a
Cambridge> scholar to figure them out? Just wondering where it stops? I kinda like> his old lyrics. They just stood on their own.
Stood on their own, as in read or hear once and you're done? No possible resonance from a different interpretation? No subleties to explore?
As I've read people's thoughts here, and re-listened to the song and re-considered lyrics that, until today, I thought included a man named Bobby and not a woman named Bobbie, a new meaning for the song has emerged, and it's like a college lit course all over again. Back then, I often read over a poem for an assignment and dismissed it as simple or uninteresting, then had my eyes opened by the class discussion of it. That's basically what's happening here. The song turns out, imo, to have some subtleties I'd missed when it was just Blood Brothers revisited (yet another argument that Bruce should have found an original melody for this lyric). And this classroom is throwing out a lot of wonderful ideas that I've tried to synthesize as a logical extrapolation of Bruce's actual intent in writing the song.
I've said elsewhere that what Bruce writes always has meaning for him, and one of the things I enjoy is searching out his intent when that meaning doesn't jump out at me. It's the difference between assuming that Bruce followed Wild Billy's at one of the Christic shows because he thought juxtaposing "All aboard Nebraska's our next stop" with a rendition of Nebraska was a cute - and trite - thing to do, versus looking for the reason and deciding that WB tells the story of a naive young boy being seduced into a world of sordid experience, and that the world he grows up into if he climbs on board with them may be as serious and frightening as the world of Nebraska's protagonist.
I'll agree that overanalysis is a danger IF you dig deeper and find nothing. If what you find makes sense and seems to line up with the author's intent, you're rewarded with a better appreciation of the song. It stops, for each of us, when we find whatever meaning we're comfortable with and when nobody can add any more to the discussion. And I don't think these discussions would have taken so long to come to some conclusions if the question of Bobby/Bobbie's gender hadn't been left up in the air until the official lyrics were published. But I've enjoyed the discussion anyway, and it's made me think more about a song I was ready to leave aside at least until the album came out.
"Zeke" <disisdis@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote in message news:VK2dnbR0pMmNDNDfRVn-uw@comcast.com...> No offense (seriously, I really don't intend any offense) but it strikes
that you guys are burning up the brain cell trying to imagine various> scenarios for these lyrics. Is that really what a Bruce Springsteen
song> requires nowadays?
As opposed to "Blinded By The Light?" Got that one on the first listen, did ya?
That his lyrics are so now opaque it takes a Cambridge> scholar to figure them out? Just wondering where it stops? I kinda
like> his old lyrics. They just stood on their own.
You're harkening back to a time and to songs like the aforementioned Blinded and to "Kitty's Back," which you quoted yourself, and talking about needing a Cambridge scholar to figure out these new lyrics?
"Real Man" stands on its own. D&D doesn't (there are apparent contradictions in the song, there is ambiguity). You don't have to play this game or to like the song, but I think you're just being, well, curmudgeonly in questioning the value of this discourse.
<LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message news:1112365081.974802.129780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed*> Bobbie?>
Thoughts?>
or that Bobbie is a female soldier?>
It's a typical typo from Sony on lyrics - Bobby would be the correct spelling - Bruce likes names ending in "Y" -
"Zeke" <disisdis@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote in message news:oPednVsnVJRqA9DfRVn-1A@comcast.com...> "Mike Voss" <mfvossNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote:> > Stood on their own, as in read or hear once and you're> > done? No possible resonance from a different interpretation?> > No subleties to explore?>
No. I meant they stood on their own because they were GOOD. No matter
many ways people find to analyze these lyrics they simply aren't very
good.
A matter of subjective judgement. On my first run-throughs I looked at them more simplistically, and found they carried more meaning weighed against key lines in BB than they did on their own. I see more there now, and you don't. Neither of us is right to the other's exclusion here, Zeke, and you know it. The song has flaws, mostly in the recycled nature of it's melody. Imo, the lyrics are just fine, it turns out.
Sure, you can draw all sorts of inferences and mish-mashes of his true> meaning & intent, but why do that?
Because that's one thing that art invites you to do when there's ambiguity involved, your pejorative take notwithstanding.
His old lyrics did not require such mental excercises, either. They were> right out there for you to understand, back when he was one of the best> writers working.
He changed writing styles, for the most part, and introduced nuances and subtlety into his songs. I'm not gonna berate him for that, any more than I would for meaningless running off at the mouth lyrics in his early years, when all you could say of a song like Bishop Danced or Thundercrack was that he had a great talent for evocative imagery.
Again, no offense, but I think Bruce could write "row row row your boat> gently down the stream" and his hardcore> fans would interpret it as him going upriver to see Kurtz.
Hyperbole isn't going to convince anyone, Zeke. You commended me for an objective pov when it was in some way agreeable with your own. Now that I find reasons to disagree about some elements of the song, I suddenly can't find the objectivity to differentiate it from a nursery rhyme? Come on, Zeke, you're trying too hard Lighten up and finally let people find their own good, bad or indifferent in this song. I respect your opinion, but when you berate us over subjective matters your opinion starts to mean less. I'm not holding D & D up to be a masterpiece. You needn't reduce it to a children's ditty. The room in between shouldn't offend either of our sensibilities, should it?
"mary-ellen" <meb@NOSPAMmetrocast.net> wrote in message news:gqmdnS1n-Mw1LNDfRVn-hg@metrocastcablevision.com...>
<LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message> news:1112365081.974802.129780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> > Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed*> > Bobbie?> >
Thoughts?> >
or that Bobbie is a female soldier?> >
It's a typical typo from Sony on lyrics - Bobby would be the correct> spelling -> Bruce likes names ending in "Y" ->
"Karen Burns" <hellotrou@NoSpamNomindspring.com> wrote in message news:%ti3e.10137$z.2787@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...> "mary-ellen" <meb@NOSPAMmetrocast.net> wrote in message> news:gqmdnS1n-Mw1LNDfRVn-hg@metrocastcablevision.com...> >
<LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message> > news:1112365081.974802.129780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> > > Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed*> > > Bobbie?> > >
Thoughts?> > >
or that Bobbie is a female soldier?> > >
It's a typical typo from Sony on lyrics - Bobby would be the correct> > spelling -> > Bruce likes names ending in "Y" -> >
"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBOING@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:114rdqo2ohjuhe9@corp.supernews.com...> "Karen Burns" <hellotrou@NoSpamNomindspring.com> wrote in message> news:%ti3e.10137$z.2787@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...> > "mary-ellen" <meb@NOSPAMmetrocast.net> wrote in message> > news:gqmdnS1n-Mw1LNDfRVn-hg@metrocastcablevision.com...> > >
<LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message> > > news:1112365081.974802.129780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> > > > Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed*> > > > Bobbie?> > > >
Thoughts?> > > >
or that Bobbie is a female soldier?> > > >
It's a typical typo from Sony on lyrics - Bobby would be the correct> > > spelling -> > > Bruce likes names ending in "Y" -> > >
Mike Voss wrote:> "Zeke" <disisdis@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote in message
[...]
His old lyrics did not require such mental excercises, either. They were>>right out there for you to understand, back when he was one of the best>>writers working.>
He changed writing styles, for the most part, and introduced> nuances and subtlety into his songs. I'm not gonna berate> him for that, any more than I would for meaningless running> off at the mouth lyrics in his early years, when all you could> say of a song like Bishop Danced or Thundercrack was that> he had a great talent for evocative imagery.
[tedious ramble alert]
I, for one, have really enjoyed this thread, though I don't have the mental energy to speak up in it. Having said that, I sort of find myself disagreeing with Zeke and Mike here--and even though they disagree with each other, I think they're basically assuming the same thing, which is that there's some kind of natural connection between how much a song is/can be analyzed and picked apart and how good that song is.
If I've got it right, Zeke seems to think that if you can or do spend all this time picking a song apart and reading it closely, it's out of an attempt to compensate for what's missing from the lyrics, an attempt to impose goodness on them that wouldn't be necessary if the lyrics were really and truly and self-evidently good, the way they used to be. I think that's wrong because I don't doubt for a second not only that we could pick apart the great Bruce songs of the past--but also that we would have done that if back in the late-70s we had RMAS, one song from Darkness, and a month's wait for the rest of the album to come out.
Anything can be analyzed, studied, picked apart and put back together, provided the readers/listeners are imaginative enough to do it. And while some songs are more suited to that kind of close reading than others, I don't think that has anything to do with how good or bad they are. We can pick apart "Devils and Dust" much more easily than we can "The Red Wheelbarrow," but I doubt Springsteen's song will be come one of the most important poems of the 21st century.
This is why I think I disagree with Mike, too, _if_ he's suggesting that the fact that the lyrics can be analyzed this way is some sort of Good-In-Itself. I don't buy that. English classes can spend a whole semester studying Eliot, but they can also spend a whole semester studying Danielle Steele. I've seen living proof. I don't think there's a connection between what we'd consider "quality" and the degree to which you can find different meanings in a song.
The conversation about the meanings of "D&D" here has been all about the imagination and interest of the listeners. I don't think it has much to do with the song itself, except to the extent that the lyrics are opaque enough to allow for lots of readings. But opacity, in and of itself, isn't good or bad. It's a big mistake to generalize in any way about what's good or bad. Some opaque songs are great, and some suck. You could substitute just about any adjective for opaque, and the sentence would still be true.
Anyway, I'll shut up now, but it seems to me that the conversation between Mike, Kevin and others is exactly the kind of thing that should be happening here (if not here, where?)--as are laments that Bruce doesn't write the way he used to--so I hope you'll all carry on.
Wow, that's a ramble. Apologies to anyone who actually read to the end. Now you know how my poor students feel.
"Karen Burns" <hellotrou@NoSpamNomindspring.com> wrote in message news:%ti3e.10137$z.2787@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...> "mary-ellen" <meb@NOSPAMmetrocast.net> wrote in message> news:gqmdnS1n-Mw1LNDfRVn-hg@metrocastcablevision.com...> >
<LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message> > news:1112365081.974802.129780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> > > Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed*> > > Bobbie?> > >
Thoughts?> > >
or that Bobbie is a female soldier?> > >
It's a typical typo from Sony on lyrics - Bobby would be the correct> > spelling -> > Bruce likes names ending in "Y" -> >
"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAMBOING@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:114rdqo2ohjuhe9@corp.supernews.com...> "Karen Burns" <hellotrou@NoSpamNomindspring.com> wrote in message> news:%ti3e.10137$z.2787@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...> > "mary-ellen" <meb@NOSPAMmetrocast.net> wrote in message> > news:gqmdnS1n-Mw1LNDfRVn-hg@metrocastcablevision.com...> > >
<LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message> > > news:1112365081.974802.129780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> > > > Has anyone floated the idea that the narrator of D&D has *killed*> > > > Bobbie?> > > >
Thoughts?> > > >
or that Bobbie is a female soldier?> > > >
It's a typical typo from Sony on lyrics - Bobby would be the correct> > > spelling -> > > Bruce likes names ending in "Y" -> > >
"Evan Z" <evanz@sport.rr.comnospamplease> wrote in message news:NOj3e.13724$ij5.5066@tornado.texas.rr.com...> ...I sort of find myself> disagreeing with Zeke and Mike here--and even though they disagree with> each other, I think they're basically assuming the same thing, which is> that there's some kind of natural connection between how much a song> is/can be analyzed and picked apart and how good that song is.
As I said in closing out my last post, I'm not holding D & D up as an example of a masterpiece, musically or lyrically, but I do think it may have lyrical subtleties that lean me toward giving it a better-than-average grade.> ...English classes can spend a whole> semester studying Eliot, but they can also spend a whole semester> studying Danielle Steele.
Springsteen's output lends itself more to comparison with Eliot than with Steele, however, and that alone means we may be able to productively mine the majority of his lyrics. Fairer comparison might be made with a Springsteen lyric that doesn't lend itself to close reading or have serious subject matter, such as I'm A Rocker. I don't think I'd ever jump into a thread picking apart I'm A Rocker the way I did hear, because it doesn't have the same qualities that D & D does lyrically.
...but it seems to me that the conversation> between Mike, Kevin and others is exactly the kind of thing that should> be happening here (if not here, where?)--as are laments that Bruce> doesn't write the way he used to--so I hope you'll all carry on.
I completely agree. My last post, however, reacted to the inference by Zeke that we're wasting our time and his by looking for D & D's meaning. His approach is starting to take on a tone that sounds insulting to the contributors to this thread, despite the repeated "no offense" disclaimers. He's so wrapped up in hating the song and any support that is given to it that he can't just let it be. Maybe I'm being too harsh in inferring that from what Zeke has written, but that's just how I'm starting to see his messages. And I don't want to get into analyzing *those* as well, since I think his meaning is crystal clear
<LuvTheBoss@aol.com> wrote in message news:1112401576.093987.16620@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
It's not like we didn't have a long and winding conversation about The> Rising either. I remember discussing whether "dust on my shoes" was> anything from anthrax to the wearer not having gone out since 9/11 and> his shoes being literally dusty.
Whether the fireman lived My own accidental contribution, LOL! I was gonna bring up the same thing, but thought it might fuel Zeke's fires since he isn't crazy about that album either
For pete's sake.Anything to keep a couple of right wing hijakers from> interpreting it as a rallying cry!
If that happens I quit! LOL! I'm about winded on this for now too, as opposed to the usual long-winded, and I'm satisfied with where the discussion has taken me in reading the song.
"Evan Z" <evanz@sport.rr.comnospamplease> wrote in message news:NOj3e.13724$ij5.5066@tornado.texas.rr.com...>
The conversation about the meanings of "D&D" here has been all about the > imagination and interest of the listeners. I don't think it has much to do > with the song itself, except to the extent that the lyrics are opaque > enough to allow for lots of readings.
Clipping this comment of Evan's out of context here, because he touches on a point that I'd like to jump on. In Springsteen's more recent work, he seems to be deliberately avoiding lyrical choices that would limit themselves to one fixed interpretation. In Devils, for instance, there's nothing in the song that forces the interpretation that it's written from the viewpoint of a soldier. Really, it could just as easily be from the point of view of a cowboy out on the Western Plains. Even though I doubt that's what Springsteen had in mind, I do think he's deliberately avoiding explicitly identifying the character.
Awhile back, Bruce used the word "resonance" a lot when talking about songwriting. I think that's the primary quality he's been striving for these days. He's been shying away from specifically spelling out what the song's "about," and relying more and more often on allusive and evocative imagery to create a framework that's merely suggestive of a specific situation.
That's very much the case with almost all the songs on The Rising, I think. I mean, on that album, he seems to completely avoid characterization or linear, literal story-telling. It really is an artfully arranged amalgamation of images for the most part. There's not a single "Crazy Janey" or "Spanish Johnny" to be found there. I think every single song on that album is told from the perspective of the Everyman. Whether that was a conscious or unconscious artistic decision I can't say, but it's too consistent for me to think it was accidental. Certainly, we know that Bruce has the ability to create well-drawn characters when it suits his purpose. For whatever reason, he assidiously avoided doing that on The Rising. I tend to think there's some sort of rationale for approach.
Perhaps it's meant to prevent the listener from identifying the character as "the other." He attempting to compel us into standing in their shoes. The use of evocative and loaded images forces us to see things through their eyes and experience their feelings. To the extent that that's possible and we're capable, that is. It's an intriguing narrative strategy, but I'll leave it open as to whether it works or not. The results are somewhat mixed, IMHO.
But yeah, it forces us to try to make our own sense of things under the guise of attempting to interpret what Bruce is saying. The images are going to resonant differently for each person. To me, it seems like Bruce is trying to take advantage of that by giving that tendency a pretty free rein.
To some extent, Bruce has always done that. In the early days, the language he used was a lot more extravagant, that's all. These days, he tries a lot harder to maintain the appearance of plain-spoke language to achieve the same thing. I do thing his word choices are more loaded with a multiplicity of meaning than ever, however.
To me, that is the mark of good writing. It doesn't hit you over the head with showiness, and what you get out of it depends on the effort you want to put into it. When it's really good writing, there's always something new no matter how deeply you delve into it.
On this particular song, there's one aspect I find interesting that's barely been touched upon so far. The additional instrumentation that builds throughout the song seems completely at odds with any easy interpretation of the lyrics. By the end of the song, it seems to suggest there's something glorious happening. I'm thinking something along the lines of the way that disillusionment is also an awakening right now.
Mike Voss wrote:> "Evan Z" <evanz@sport.rr.comnospamplease> wrote in message> news:NOj3e.13724$ij5.5066@tornado.texas.rr.com...>
...I sort of find myself>>disagreeing with Zeke and Mike here--and even though they disagree with>>each other, I think they're basically assuming the same thing, which is>>that there's some kind of natural connection between how much a song>>is/can be analyzed and picked apart and how good that song is.>
As I said in closing out my last post, I'm not holding D & D up> as an example of a masterpiece, musically or lyrically, but I> do think it may have lyrical subtleties that lean me toward> giving it a better-than-average grade.
Right. I'm not disagreeing with you on whether the song is good. It's not going to change my life, but I like it, and I think I like it for some of the reasons you do. The words are enigmatic, and they make me want to revisit them and tease out the story in the song. I think that's what I posted after I first heard the song, but that may have been on AMBS.
...English classes can spend a whole>>semester studying Eliot, but they can also spend a whole semester>>studying Danielle Steele.
Springsteen's output lends itself more to comparison with Eliot> than with Steele, however, and that alone means we may be able> to productively mine the majority of his lyrics.
My point is that you can productively mine any set of lyrics. The questions you ask about them will change depending on whether they're "I'm a Rocker" or, say, "Paradise," but any set of words will work, if the readers/listeners are creative enough.
I also think that what you can do with lyrics, how you can mine them, is conceivably separate from how great or not great we think they are. For example, let's say the greatest lyrics in rock history are mid-60s Dylan. I might even say that, but still I have no patience at all for attempted close readings of them. They just drive me nuts, and they all seem wrong to me. And I'm an English teacher. On the other hand, that's just a personal preference of mine. If people like analyzing those Dylan songs, then they should have at it, and enjoy. But to me, the greatness of those songs is completely separate from whatever is produced by those close readings. (So no, I haven't bought the Christopher Ricks book on Dylan!
[...]
...but it seems to me that the conversation>>between Mike, Kevin and others is exactly the kind of thing that should>>be happening here (if not here, where?)--as are laments that Bruce>>doesn't write the way he used to--so I hope you'll all carry on.>
I completely agree. My last post, however, reacted to the> inference by Zeke that we're wasting our time and his by> looking for D & D's meaning.
