For instance, ------------------------------------------------------- What I label as London MS - Lute Sonata 2 in D Major
Smith-Crawford numbering is S-C 2 Piece numbering is S-C 2,1 - 2,2 - 2,3 - 2,4 - 2,5 - 2,6 and 2,7 Smith numbering is Sm11 - Sm17 ------------------------------------------------------
What I label as London MS - Lute Sonata 4 in G Major
Smith-Crawford numbering is S-C 5 Piece numbering is S-C 5,1 - 5,2 - 5,3 - 5,4 - 5,5 - 5,6 and 5,7 Smith numbering is Sm32 - Sm38
Barto recorded this as Lute Sonata 5 in G Major in his Naxos 2nd Volume (great recording btw
I forget where the "London MS Lute Sonata 4" designation orginated with me back when I did this work 3 years or so ago, but this may just be an error on my part. I distinctly remember this being designated as Sonata 4 at the time.
S-C designation 4 is listed as in Bb, with Prelude, Ouverture, Allegro, Courante, Bourree. Sm26, 27, 27, 28, and 30. I'm remembering now, that this was not considered a "complete" Sonata and that I may have overlooked it in the numbering scheme. Any insight is appreciated. -----------------------------------------------------
I'll do more as time permits....I'm updating my site (the individual pages for the Lute Sonatas) with the above information.
Rich
Kind Regards,
Richard F. Sayage Savage Classical Guitar Bay Shore, NY 11706
For instance, ------------------------------------------------------- What I label as London MS - Lute Sonata 2 in D Major
Smith-Crawford numbering is S-C 2 Piece numbering is S-C 2,1 - 2,2 - 2,3 - 2,4 - 2,5 - 2,6 and 2,7 Smith numbering is Sm11 - Sm17 ------------------------------------------------------
What I label as London MS - Lute Sonata 4 in G Major
Smith-Crawford numbering is S-C 5 Piece numbering is S-C 5,1 - 5,2 - 5,3 - 5,4 - 5,5 - 5,6 and 5,7 Smith numbering is Sm32 - Sm38
Barto recorded this as Lute Sonata 5 in G Major in his Naxos 2nd Volume (great recording btw
I forget where the "London MS Lute Sonata 4" designation orginated with me back when I did this work 3 years or so ago, but this may just be an error on my part. I distinctly remember this being designated as Sonata 4 at the time.
S-C designation 4 is listed as in Bb, with Prelude, Ouverture, Allegro, Courante, Bourree. Sm26, 27, 27, 28, and 30. I'm remembering now, that this was not considered a "complete" Sonata and that I may have overlooked it in the numbering scheme. Any insight is appreciated. -----------------------------------------------------
I'll do more as time permits....I'm updating my site (the individual pages for the Lute Sonatas) with the above information.
Rich
Kind Regards,
Richard F. Sayage Savage Classical Guitar Bay Shore, NY 11706
Lute Sonata 2 from the London MS was recorded by Robert Barto on his Naxos Cd titled Sonatas for Lute Volume 3. It is listed as Sonata No. 2 in D Major.
Arthur Ness 21 February 2008 05:33:23 [ permanent link ]
Dear Rich,
I can sympathize with your frustration with numbers for the Weiss sonatas. Markus Lutz's Worklist is still in progress and perhaps will not be finalized until the complete works have been published in the edition started by Doug Smith and being continued by Tim Crawford. But Lutz's work will be a great assist to all with an interest in the muisc of SLW.
The London and other numbers are somewhat like yours for the London MS because Doug started with the London manuscript. In the Lutz worklist the "Sm" numbers refer to the thematic index in the appendix to Doug's Stanford U. dissertation, "The Late<sic!!!!> Works of ... Weiss" (1977). For your purposes, the Smith numbers are irrelevant, since the "Sm" pieces were re-numbered when the S-C list was assembled.
You can correlate your numbers with the S-C numbers by checking the source and folio number in Lutz's list. "Lbl" as you probably know, stands for London, British Museum, followed by the folio number. "Dl" stands for Dresden, Landesbibliothek (number with Roman numbers by the editor of the facsimile edition), and as far as I can tell Sonata # 34 begins with Dresden. Barto's Sonata numbers seem to be the same as the S-C numbers.
There is a second series of S-C number with asterisks. These are the numbers for pieces that appear alone--not in a sonata. Such individual pieces are scattered throughout the Weiss manuscripts.
Hope this will be helpful, if you decide to add the S-C numbers. I really don;'t know how many people will be helped with that information. I had a hard time finding one of your sonatas in the Smith edition, and the S-C number would have eased my task. But how many people will want to check your transcrt[tion against the original tablature? But surely many will want to find Barto's recording.
Markus has done a tremendous amount of excellent, detailed work, and we must all be grateful for his efforts on our behalf! -- =====AJN (Boston, Mass.)===== * Free Download of the Week from Classical Music Library:
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Tchaikovsky's_ Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___ performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano; James Judd, conductor. More information about this piece is available on our music blog <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.
Go to my web page and click on Alexander Street Press link:
"Richard F. Sayage" <rsayage1@ZEROSPAMsavageclassical.com> wrote in message news:47bc6260$0$25049$607ed4bc@cv.net... | Starting a new thread.... | | "Richard F. Sayage" <rsayage1@ZEROSPAMsavageclassical.com> wrote in message | news:47bc4f35$0$25066$607ed4bc@cv.net... | > | > "Arthur Ness" <arthurjness@verizon.net> wrote in message | > news:F9Xuj.32316$s33.19755@trndny06... | >> "Andrew Schulman" <abacaprd@panix.com> wrote in message | >> news:cf94780b-45d3-47de-8e3e-2a04f21d91d4@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com... | >> On Feb 18, 8:12 am, "Arthur Ness" <arthurjn...@verizon.net> wrote: | >>> There are too many different | >>> numbering systems for the Weiss works, and that causes great | >>> confusion. | >>> | >>> | >> Yes, very confusing when trying to find his pieces. | >> | >> Andrew | >> ======================================================================== | >> Andrew, | >> | >> Yes, and there's the Chiesa numbers which correspond to the solo | >> pieces in the London manuscript, but the numbers do not agree with the | >> order of pieces in the original manuscript because some of the pieces | >> are for ensemble, and those | >> numbers are left out in Chiesa list. It really is a mess. Worse than | >> all the different Vivaldi numbers. Smith and Crawford appealed to the | >> Library of Congress catlogue division to use the S-C system, but were | >> turned down because Crawford hasn't finished his collected edition of | >> the music of Weiss (underway now for about 30 years!). So it's still | >> Klima as far as they're concerned, and Klima is terribly out of date. | >> He's been dead for about 20 years, and that catalogue he "published" | >> in Ditto is rarer than hen's teeth. So that makes it difficult for | >> someone to convert the various systems from one to another. And how | >> many pieces did he compose? Yikes! But Markus Lutz has given us all | >> a good paradigm. I really hope people will pay more attention to | >> Markus's listing. | >> | >> I tried to find some of Sayage's pieces, and I could not fathom his | >> system of numbers, either. I hope he will be able to use the S-C | >> numbers (even in a footnote), then players will have an easier time | >> locating a recording, should they wish to hear the pieces. Or at | >> least he might cite the source and | >> folio number upon which the piece appears. That would assist | >> greatly in finding specific works. (Although that might not work for | >> recordings.<sigh>) But it would be unreasonable to ask him to | >> re-number all his transcrptions. | >> | > | > Hi Arthur and everyone, | > I've numbered by the Sonata within the MS, whether it is the Dresden or | > the London. I've also attempted to correlate to Barto's recordings and | > his use of numbering. Thus, Lute Sonata V from the Dresden MS is what | > Barto recorded as Lute Sonata 34 in D Minor. Which is why I said the | > London MS may have 29 Sonatas, but now, after so much reading, I can't be | > sure if the actual number is 26, 27, 28 or 29 Sonatas! | > Given that I can be of assistance, however small, I can attempt to | > correlate to the S-C numbers also, on the web and in the publications. I | > looked thru the numbering quite a few times. Admittedly, it is very | > confusing. I will look at it again with a design to match up the numbers. | > I have to find the time, given numerous prior commitments, but I consider | > this relatively important. It will go on my to-do list. LOL I'll post | > thru here as I find what I hope will be the correct S-C designations | > and/or the source and folio number/page number. | > | > -- | > Kind Regards, | > | > Richard F. Sayage | > Savage Classical Guitar | > Bay Shore, NY 11706 | > | > www.savageclassicalguitar.com | > www.savageclassical.com | > | > | | For instance, | ------------------------------------------------------- | What I label as London MS - Lute Sonata 2 in D Major | | Smith-Crawford numbering is S-C 2 | Piece numbering is S-C 2,1 - 2,2 - 2,3 - 2,4 - 2,5 - 2,6 and 2,7 | Smith numbering is Sm11 - Sm17 | ------------------------------------------------------ | | What I label as London MS - Lute Sonata 4 in G Major | | Smith-Crawford numbering is S-C 5 | Piece numbering is S-C 5,1 - 5,2 - 5,3 - 5,4 - 5,5 - 5,6 and 5,7 | Smith numbering is Sm32 - Sm38 | | Barto recorded this as Lute Sonata 5 in G Major in his Naxos 2nd Volume | (great recording btw | | I forget where the "London MS Lute Sonata 4" designation orginated with me | back when I did this work 3 years or so ago, but this may just be an error | on my part. I distinctly remember this being designated as Sonata 4 at the | time. | | S-C designation 4 is listed as in Bb, with Prelude, Ouverture, Allegro, | Courante, Bourree. Sm26, 27, 27, 28, and 30. I'm remembering now, that | this was not considered a "complete" Sonata and that I may have overlooked | it in the numbering scheme. Any insight is appreciated. | ----------------------------------------------------- | | I'll do more as time permits....I'm updating my site (the individual pages | for the Lute Sonatas) with the above information. | | Rich | | Kind Regards, | | Richard F. Sayage | Savage Classical Guitar | Bay Shore, NY 11706 | | www.savageclassicalguitar.com | www.savageclassical.com | | | |
Markus has done a tremendous amount of excellent, detailed work, and
we must all
be grateful for his efforts on our behalf!
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
Hi Arther, Thank you much. Most assuredly, Markus Lutz is to be thanked for his efforts. Personally, I'm grateful to all of them for all of their work. Otherwise, I'd be saying, "Hey, here's another freakin' lute sonata from Weiss...I don't know the number but it's in D, baby....yeah, D"...
Thank you, also for asking the question(s) of me and the above information. I'm going thru my sources, as I can allocate time, to find the S-C numbers thru Markus' worklist. Saying that, I'm not certain that the Dresden MS begins with Sonata 34, Arthur. This is definitely Lute Sonata V in the Dresden, as far as I know at the moment, which was recorded by Barto and listed by him as Sonata 34 in D Minor. This seems to be S-C 34 or Sm233-340, which is the first volume of the Dresden MS folios 25-30. Jeez, in one sentence, there are 3 designations, coupled with my own of Lute Sonata 5. No wonder this is a mess!
The first Sonata of the Dresden MS, as far as I can ascertain, is in F Major, listed as folio 1-5 containing a Prelude, Allemande, Courante, Bourree, Sarabande, Menuet 1, Menuet 2, and a Gigue. The S-C designation seems to be 33.
This is one of those cases, where the more I look, the more confusing it becomes.
To make matters even more confusing, Barto lists Sonata 36 in D Minor and this is listed as S-C 36, which I'm sure is Sonata 8 from the Dresden. It begins with an Allemande and ends with an Allegro. Or...at least it WAS Sonata 8?
So... Lute Sonata I Dresden MS = S-C 33 Lute Sonata V Dresden MS = S-C 34 Lute Sonata VIII Dresden MS = S-C 36
I wonder if the concordance is affecting the "latest" Sonata numbering within the individual MSs? There are numerous matches to the Warsaw and the London within the first volume of the six total volumes of the Dresden alone? Personally, I don't believe this should apply. If it's found in the MS, it has to be counted, regardless of concordance. It's probably not an issue here. Figured I'd just mention it.
As I write this, I've become convinced that an MS Sonata # listing is preferable, much like I've been doing. London MS # , Dresden MS #...BUT...Match those with the S-C numbers and I think we got something!
I'm going to leave out the individual pieces (the Dresden MS is not strewn with them like the London is...). I'm going to make this a project in the coming months, subject to revision and correction. Since these 2 MSs are my only focus, I'll work these out. Your corrections and/or feedback as I bring this out, and that of anyone's, is greatly appreciated. At the very least, as you said earlier, they can search out and match up the recordings, the tablature, doing so much more easily.
Anytime I say anything out of whack here, let me know. It's ok....
Arthur Ness 22 February 2008 03:48:00 [ permanent link ]
"Andrew Schulman" <abacaprd@panix.com> wrote in message news:d380ea3d-084f-4ffb-bcd4-5aeb2a017db6@m23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... On Feb 20, 8:33 pm, "Arthur Ness" <arthurjn...@verizon.net> wrote:
Dear Rich,
I can sympathize with your frustration with numbers for the Weiss
sonatas.
My guess is that the Weiss repertoire is the most discombobulated when it comes to numbering. Know of anything worse?
Just curious!
Andrew ===================================================================== Dear Rich and Andrew,
Well, it is about as discombobulated as the situation with Vivaldi with the original Opus, the Pincherle, Malipiero, Roem, and Hanna numbers--all different. And all current in the past. And for Vivaldi the RV numbers have become standard, although older books may refer to the others.
For Weiss the S-C (Smith-Crawford) numbers should be considered standard, and are now settled for the London and Dresden manuscript, because those volumes have been published in the Smith-Crwaford collected edition. Numbers for the remaining works have been established (subject to change?) and Markus Lutrz has "published" them on his Weiss web site. The S-C numbers for Weiss are like the K and BWV numbers for Mozart and JS Bach, and should be similarly used.
So I think Rich has settled on a good compromise. He apparently will continue to number his transcriptions by source (1-32 in London and 1-whatever in Dresden--the Savage numbers.<g>), with a reference for each sonata to the S-C numbers. Barto really is not using the numbers properly, and that contributes to the confusion. For example he has "Sonata No. 5 in D Major." He means "Sonata in D Major, S-C. 5." And that would be crystal clear.
Anyway, there are blue skies in the distance, thank to people like Rich. After all Lutz says there are 1501 works, and some kind of standard order is necessary unless we're all to go nuts.
-- =====AJN (Boston, Mass.)===== * Free Download of the Week from Classical Music Library:
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Tchaikovsky's_ Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___ performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano; James Judd, conductor. More information about this piece is available on our music blog <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.
Go to my web page and click on Alexander Street Press link:
